I agree. Can’t really see how it would work in practice in international waters though. Who should enforce it for example? UN, maybe? Some new international coast guard type organization operating only on international waters? Should the local marine or coast guard be responsible for the vessels under the same flag even on international waters? Kind of a big job, that. I’m no maritime expert by any stretch and international law and treaties aren’t in my book of tricks either. It can’t be entirely impossible, but I’m not your man on this. There’s quite possibly some simpler solution that would at least improve the situation, but… Maybe if local companies was bound to local regulations even on international waters and their actions could be prosecuted according to that, things might at least improve. At least for a case like this, provided his company was US based in the first place and/or the boat they used. I dunno.

You are probably right about game theory working for zero sum games, but in this game, there is only one player. Us. Humanity as a whole. The two outcomes in that game are so trivial that we don’t need game theory to figure out which outcome is most beneficial.

We pretty much already know what needs to be done to win this game, or at least give it our best shot. Game theory is what holds us back from doing that, because we are wrongly applying it to try and find local best outcomes. Unfortunately, there is no point in looking for local best outcomes in this game, because they won’t matter if the whole game is lost.

I can’t say I fully thought out my comment to that extent, but I do agree that we need proper regulations to protect us from shady business practices, even if the CEO in this case believed it to be safe enough to take the same risks as the customers. But that is beside the point. Proper regulations protects the public even in that case.

How those regulations could be enforced on international waters is whole bag of cats that I don’t even have a shoot-from-the-hip kinda opinion on. UN somehow? I don’t know.

Yeah, Lennon fans can be annoying.

Yep, that’s the one. I saw this argument someplace on youtube, but I’m a bit uncertain as to where so I can’t give credit to whoever came up with it.

It’s not easy keeping it on the wagon, that’s for sure. You think you’re doing well, but a moment of weakness is all it takes sometimes. It gets easier and easier in time but you still need to be vigilant for ever. I fell of the wagon after being clean for three years. That sucked. I was so fucking disappointed with myself. Can’t ever let your guard down. Thinking you’re safe is often the one that gets you. Don’t mean to preach, you know all this already of course. As I said before, you need to find your own way that works for you. Stay strong, I believe in you. If you need to talk, pm me. Now I need to get my beauty sleep. Hasn’t improved my looks much so far, but I keep the hope alive. Cheers.

Yeah he was right about that, but what many people don’t get is that kindness in and of itself is actually all you need. All that other baggage that comes with the dude you’re talking about has caused a lot of trouble and isn’t necessary for kindness to work its magic. Love is all you need, to quote someone else who wasn’t always on the money, but he was right about that.

Some suggestions that might actually help, huh? Novel idea, that. Not trying to put you down, It was more of a comment about what the rest of this conversion’s been about.

I think you are pretty much right on in your reasoning and we need more people to realize this and get angry enough to demand action. Even the most stubborn denialists will start to figure out that there is something not quite right about the weather phenomena we are seeing more and more frequently and with larger amplitudes than ever before. Question is if they realize soon enough. Because some serious action needs to happen like yesterday if we want to stop this. As much as I would like to implement space communism, it is a tough sell and it it needs to happen slowly. Otherwise we’ll just be making another Stalin/Mao-type society and that’s not really ideal to say the least. Regardless of what the tankies in lemmygrad would have us believe. I don’t really have an easy solution on hand, I’m pretty much winging it as I go. Easy solutions to complex problems rub me the wrong way as well, even if they are an easier sell. This is why it is so important to have discussions like this. Crowd-source a solution, if you will. But mainly to raise awareness and gain buy-in from as many people as possible. Corporations been pretty successful in dumping all the responsibility on us and therefore avoiding a lot of costs in cleaning up. Take bottles for example. In the later Cambrian period when I was young, soda came in glass bottles and soda companies were responsible for the whole life cycle of the bottle. This is a lot more expensive than letting the customers take the responsibility for the trash, but more importantly, they’re off the hook for all the plastic bottles that’s dumped everywhere. They can even have campaigns telling us to be responsible with the trash they produce and not having to deal with it themselves. Win-win. We need to shift the responsibility back to the corporations again. Don’t fall for the old “we just give customers what they want”-routine. It is just trying to shift the blame for their lack of responsibility while producing the goods we buy. I’d they can’t make their products without fucking the world up, they shouldn’t make them at all. I’m quoting from memory here, so correct me when I’m wrong. Just one hundred companies are responsible for over 30%(?) of the world’s CO2 emissions and they tell us we need to save the world by recycling? Give me a break. And ducking (autocorrect, but I’m keeping it) abolish Citizens United already. The US isn’t a democracy even on paper anymore.

Slightly off topic - I saw a pretty interesting video by Abagail of Philosophy tube about the morality and legality of protests and the examples that were used was based on a protest on a coal mine in Germany some years ago. This is likely preaching to the quire in this community, but if you’ve not seen Philosophy tube before, you really should check it out. I’m a proud patron there, myself. 😊 Sorry to make you use google to find it, but that’s how lazy I am. To come clean, some of the butchered points above may originally be from her. I think. I have a terrible memory for who said what.

I’m sorry to not have answered earlier, but I got tied up a bit and also lost a comment to this by being clumsy. Not that used to typing on the phone this much.

I feel you, I really do. It is not easy fending of the existential dread and you do almost anything to not feel it so much, just for a while. The society we live in do not help much and not playing by their rules anymore feels good. Not letting it turn destructive for yourself is the real trick though. Questioning what you’ve been fed your whole life is not an easy process. You’ve built your entire existence on one set of beliefs and realizing that you may have been wrong to do that, is not a small thing. It is very easy to reject everything and if you push it too far it is easy to succumb to some sort of nihilism. That’s rarely helpful for yourself or the people around you. You need to find something else to replace those lies that you’ve been fed. What that is, you need to find out for yourself. Take your time, the world can take care of itself for a while. You seem to be the kind of person that likes to figure things out for yourself and that is a good thing. Don’t lose that, and keep an eye out for all the other lies people are trying to sell. But be especially wary of what some dusty old know-it-all on the internet says. Find your own way and try not to lose hope.

I too feel like that a lot of the time. The problem with using game theory, is that game theory only works for a zero sum game. This isn’t a zero sum game. Making us believe that is part of the propaganda. Helping someone else to a better life does not make your life worse. Our whole success as a species is proof plenty of that. A group of people helping each other is more successful than being alone and trying to fend for yourself. The propaganda is trying to make us forget that. Unfortunately, our whole economic system is built like it is a zero sum game and that is reflected in the values of society and the US is perhaps the most clear cut example of this. It is all lies. We must, however, widen the scope of our thinking. The community isn’t just your little patch of dirt. It is the whole world. Helping another part of the world or other people will make it better for you as well in the long run. Even if it temporarily inconveniences you, welcoming people who can’t survive in their patch of dirt to yours, will strengthen you in the long run. Even better is to stop exploiting other people so they can have a good life at home and doesn’t need to work 18 hour shifts to make plastic shit we don’t even need. It’s not a zero sum game and we need to stop believing that it is.

Good for you! Wish more people would follow your example. Not everyone can, but there’s always something to do. I must say that this community has made my day a lot better. It is easy to lose hope, but I have gained back a little faith in humanity today. Thanks.

If you’re implying what I think you’re implying, violence is rarely the way to go. It feeds on itself and those who are best at it or most inclined to use it tend to rise to the top and those are not the kind of people you want running things when the smoke has cleared. Those people tend to continue using those same methods that worked to get them where they are. History has numerous examples of when well meaning movements that came to power through violence and turned to crap afterwords because the leaders continued using violence to stay in power. Be very wary of simple solutions to complex problems.

You are right in the sense that change is needed and change never comes easy. I think it is a mistake to blame the people, despite my click-baity first question above. People are just trying to get by and do not see a way to improve things. If you got a mortgage and a couple kids you gotta feed and the boss is on your back with ever more work and there’s just not enough time in the day, it is bloody hard to let go of that responsibility and join the revolution. Most people just want to get by and are too tired to do anything else. They are also fed an endless stream of propaganda that you got to succeed and if you just work hard you’re gonna get rich one day. It is all lies, of course, but it is not easy to see through all that massive indoctrination that you’ve been forcefed since you were born. The shitty schools does not help much either.

Yes, people are too comfortable. But if your life is anything like I described above, you’re too bloody tired not to be. You just want to get a few hours to watch the TV or look through your Facebook feed before you crash into bed with a few beers to numb the pain. People are still believing in the rugged individualism and it must be their own fault if they don’t succeed. (Or some scary minority’s fault) It is a very compelling story. Letting go of all the things you’ve been told your whole life isn’t easy and there are very powerful forces doing all they can to prevent people from realizing they’ve been had. It’s much easier to lie to someone than convincing them they’ve been lied to. Do not blame the people, blame the system.

Lol. Being angry is also punk as fuck, and I still think you’re wiser than I. Many wise people through history has preached kindness and regardless of their other sometimes silly ideas, kindness seem to be a bit of a common theme between many of them. It is a powerful force and we need it more than ever. It’s the only thing that can stand against the hate we see too much of these days. The hate was always there, but it seem to have gained legitimacy as of late. That needs to be fought with kindness, not more hate. Kindness brings hope and we need more of that. See? Wise.

Yeah, we’re sorta inclined to believe in what an authority tells us and it’s not easy to tell when we’re being fed tasty looking bullshit. Especially when we want it to be true.

Fair enough. If he had done it all by himself, it would’ve been fine. If someone wants to risk their own lives, it’s up to them. It is honestly kinda impressive to roll your own bat like that and actually manage to get it sorta working. But as soon as he started selling the trips, the situation is completely different. He knew his glorified tub wouldn’t pass any sort of inspection and still went full steam ahead. He had numerous people telling him it wasn’t safe and he just ignored them. He knew, he just hoped it would work anyway because he was in to deep.

Old punks unite! You’re right. Kindness and trying to do our part as best we can is all we can do. Hope is so very essential to combat the hopelessness, as is kindness. It’s easy to lose hope, but we must fight it however we can. Your comment does make me feel a bit better, thanks. You are wiser than I, which also is punk as fuck.

Yeah, came on a bit strong, didn’t I? But you are right of course. I’m not really such a grouch as this comment may have implied. Sad thing is, I’m old enough and lucky enough to probably be dead before the shit really hits the fan. It’s the young that’s gonna feel the brunt of it, and possibly sooner than they expect. I grew up in the 70s and we had hope and a feeling that pretty much anything was possible. The cold war was a bit of a bummer, but the feeling was that we could change things for the better if we tried hard enough. I don’t see that anymore and I’m pretty sad about it.

I know I’ll be ok. Probably. But it’s not about me. I’ve had a pretty good life, all things considered. Ups and downs, sure, but it’s the hopelessness of these times that worry me. We had hope for a better future and kids today won’t have that. All because my generation and those before us are selfish fucks who only look to number one.

All the time in the world if you can answer my second question instead. 😀

What the fuck is wrong with people?

That’s rhetorical and I have a fair understanding about why this is happening. It’s just so bloody frustrating not knowing how to turn this shit around and open the eyes of gen pop to this. People just don’t want to accept that unless we do something right quick, we’re fucked. We might be fucked even if we do everything right, starting tomorrow. And still, pretty much nothing, or token agreements that are cheap enough and not too disruptive to the almighty economy and doesn’t disrupt availability of cheap crap from China and other low cost countries with little to no worker safety or even regard for human life. I’m not saying I’m not part of the problem myself, cuz I sure as hell am. I try to do the right things, but far from all the time and it’s far, far from enough. This needs to come from the top to have an effect, but most, if not all, governments have their lips firmly between the cheeks of very large economic interests that need their diagrams to always be pointing up, no matter what.

I don’t know. If they weren’t such fascist autocratic ass kissers I’d be tempted to join lemmygrad. Revolution, baby. Seriously though, people here seem like an intelligent and rather handsome lot with their hearts in all the right places, so I ask you, what the fuck can we do?

I leave you with a pic of my cat to take the edge off.

Yeah, that’s not gonna happen.

Edit: feel free to quote me if I’m wrong. Is there an aged like milk sub somewhere?