Autism, as a word, is Latin for self-ism. It was named in the early days of Psychiatry by doctors who didn’t understand what it was like for us. But what they noticed was, we seemed more preoccupied with ourselves than other people, so they called the condition self-ism in Latin.
Narcissism comes from the Greek myth of Narcissus, who was cursed by Nemesis to fall in love with his reflection (see Conon, Ovid). So Narcissism is also named after this idea of being preoccupied with yourself. And there hasn’t been as much social progress on NPD, so a lot of people still think the same way today.
Etymologically speaking, the disorders are named pretty much the same. Early psychiatrists thought that these two conditions looked pretty similar to one another from the outside. And as someone with both autism and NPD, I get it, mate.
I’ve got reduced cognitive empathy from My autism, and the ability to voluntarily suppress affective empathy from My NPD. Affective empathy is the ability to sense others’ feelings, and cognitive empathy is the ability to sense others’ thoughts. So neurotypicals literally have a (limited) ability to read minds that we autistics don’t get.
And a lot of the research literature says people with NPD can’t sense others’ feelings, but that’s not My experience. I can choose not to feel others’ feelings, when I want. I think I picked up the ability from being abused and guilt tripped as a kid. Now that I’m grown up, I get to choose whether I’m susceptible to attempts to abuse Me with My empathy. For example, a few weeks ago My bio mum told Me that My dead sister was abused by our adoptive parents, while I was the “golden child”. My sister went out to suicide, so I think most egotypicals would get survivor’s guilt from that. But I have NPD to protect Me from that kind of abuse, I’m used to shrugging that stuff off.
So there are lots of differences between the two. But also similarities. NPD is a mix of genetics and trauma, while autism is purely genetic. Both give Me meltdowns sometimes, when sensory stress or ego stress get to be too much. I have times when I have to mask both of them, and times when I don’t and I might be accepted, or I might get in social trouble.
And both of them give Me a really acute sense of just how fake all of society is. Both of them motivate Me to defy social norms. Both give Me a strong justice sensitivity. I can’t stand to see something I think is wrong or unfair.
So anyway, ask Me anything about living with NPD! I want to chat and make My experience of neurodivergence understood!
I’ll be honest this is the first time I had hope for interactions with people with narcisim and myself! Thank you. I’ve had some really awful experences with abusiveness from people with NPD and a sharp clash of between my sense of justice and their’s. It unfortunately felt like with them that it was just a game of extreme masking to protect they’re ego because my typical behaviors would draw unwanted attention to they’re flaws. You’re self awareness feels like they’re might be a way to both be genuine with you while also respecting your desire for ego protection, which tbh I just haven’t gamed out as a n option :)
In your experience though, what recommendations or examples of positive experiences have you had with social interactions with autistic people?
My entire polycule has autism, just like Me. We’re a mix of NPD and BPD. My fiance (it/its) has BPD and autism, and I can call it here to answer your questions if you want. Most of My friends and romances have had autism.
In terms of recommendations, I guess I want to talk about feelings of superiority. When I hang out with other folk with NPD, we both believe we’re better than the other, and we’re quite jovial about it. “Oh, I know you think you’re so superior, and I respect your right to be wrong, but I am in fact the smartest and most attractive.” We make it into a kind of game between us. We don’t insult each other and we don’t take issue with the other’s sense of superiority. We engage in friendly banter about it. We can both choose to be cool about it.
A lot of people think feelings of superiority will always lead to abuse, or that they are themselves abuse. I disagree. You know, everyone loves Jesus, and He thought He was better than everyone else. Imagine hanging out with Jesus. You and He both know that He’s better than you, but He’s not gonna use that to hurt you. He’s gonna be kind to you. So imagine what you’d do if you were hanging out as Jesus. Now imagine you’re hanging out with someone who thinks they’re basically Jesus, and they’re wrong, but it doesn’t matter because they’re gonna be nice to you.
Funny thing, My partner believes I’m better than it. If I say “I’m better than you”, it agrees and giggles a bit because it likes how much it thinks of Me. But if I say “You’re worse than Me”, that hurts its feelings. So I don’t say that. There are different ways to communicate the same information, but are more kind or more cruel. So I choose the kind way that works for us on a personal level.
And I wanna be clear, the way I talk to My partner isn’t the same way I talk to random people or My friends. We’re very intimate and we both find My NPD attractive. If you’re just talking to Me about Star Trek, then you’re maybe gonna get a sense that I feel sanctimonious, but I’m not gonna make it overt. And you get to choose how you feel about that sanctimonious, haughty manner of speech that I have. I’m an asshole, but I always try to be a kind asshole.
Thanks for the question! Ask as many as you want!
https://embrace-autism.com/empathy-quotient/
Embrace-autism has changed their website around a bit. When I first looked last year, most of the tests had some personal notes from a few of the doctors at the clinic giving their opinions on the tests and sharing their own results. Unfortunately I cannot find those, but I do remember for the Empathy Quotient one in particular some of the doctors had very high scores (indicating they were very empathetic, and according to sone less autistic). It kind of depends on how exactly you define empathy, and when you add in things like the double-empathy problem and alexithymia it means that test can sometimes under-report empathy in autistic people. The site still has a lot of information about it, but I do miss the personal anecdotes.
I scored very highly, which makes sense to me. I am concerned with myself, and also concerned with how I fit into greater systems of people. I am one of the autistic people who is hyper-vigilant about social cues: I am constantly noticing mismatches in body language, tone, word choice, etc in other people. Honestly I find other autistic people usually have very consistent messages across all of these things, just a lower intensity. It is allistic people who tend to give contradictory communication in my own personal experience.
I have high cognitive empathy. Emotional empathy… Well, I am usually pretty good at understanding other people’s emotions. I can allow other people’s emotions to influence my own when I want. But usually when I am in the presence of others my own emotions are neutral. From a cognitive testing perspective, I have very high working memory and very low processing speed, so for social interactions I try to be neutral and safe and store all the details to replay and process later, when I have less sensory input to deal with.
I really like the word “autistic” because of the social aspect, rather than anything to do with empathy. I do not feel an urge to go out and make friends or be with a lot of people. I do not dress or behave in a manner to fit in with any group. I have had sports as special interests in the past, but I’ve never been a “jock”. I listen to metal music, but i’m not a “metalhead”. I enjoy cannabis but i’m not a “stoner”. My wife has gotten into satanism and started calling herself “goth” the past few years, gotten more tattoos and dresses more in black with a lot of skulls and chains and stuff. I wear black sometimes, but I only have 1 “goth” outfit that I wear a couple of times a year to go to events with her.
I see a lot of allistic people gather together into groups and “lose themselves”. Even some autistic people do this. I went to Anthrocon and saw the way people divide themselves into the animal archetypes. But it’s not just a one-way interaction of “I am like this, so I will join with a group of others who are also like this”. Rather, the group tends to form its own mannerisms which propagate and spread to the individuals, including new members. It is a two-way interaction between the group and the individual.
My wife’s satanic organization has a good amount of autistic people. Some of them get all “gothed” up like she does. But if you go to events and look for the people who look the most like me: few tattoos, few piercings, probably wearing regular blue jeans or sweatpants, wearing solid colored t-shirts or flannels or button-downs with simple patterns… That handful is 100% autistic. The ability to hold on to oneself and resist (or be immune to) the influence of social pressure on mgseld as an individual. I think that’s one of the key traits about myself, and one that may be correlated with autism.
I have very high working memory and very low processing speed
Interesting. I have extremely poor working memory to the point that I sometimes question whether I have dementia, but extremely fast processing speed. This will lead me to speak extremely fast in order to catch up with my thoughts, stumble on my words, and then forget what I was talking about. Genius.
I have both the 'tism as well as severe ADHD, I’m on a really high dose of Vyvanse and Venlafaxine.
In general, I feel extremely dumb when it comes to social interactions. I don’t read between the lines, I don’t read body language, and I often struggle to understand anything that is slightly vague. I have to ask for “clear, direct” instructions at work and sometimes even that fails because an assumption was taken that I don’t hold, and thus cannot carry on processing what was communicated.
I’ve also been told that I inadvertently emit body language or vocal tone without realizing, which generally does not match how I feel, so it’s all accidental and meaningless. Allegedly I sound angry when I’m passionate, for example. Or I sound fake when I’m apologizing.
It’s just wild to me how much people with autism can sit at extremes of each other.
A lot of highschool frustration I had made sense when I learned that other people had an instinctual drive to follow other peoples behaviors. It’s not bad I think there is benifits to following herd behavior I think, but I have personally benifited from being comfortable to buck or ignore trends in my life for sure too.
I’ve never seen a self aware narcissist. You’re like a unicorn.
I’d prefer if you didn’t call Me a “n*rcissist”. I prefer “person with NPD” (person first language), and I’m also okay with “narcissistic person” (identity first language). But identity-only language is something I don’t think should be used by people outside our part of the community, even if they have other forms of neurodivergence. You know, I don’t call people “deafs” or “schizophrenics”.
People think it’s okay to use the word n*rcissist because there are a lot of other words ending in -ist that are fine to say. Like atheist, or socialist, or botanist. And those are all choices people make, so they’re fine. But it’s exactly that -ist ending that subconsciously makes people think that having NPD is a choice, when they hear that word. So it’s a pretty dangerous word for the community.
Oh ok I’m sorry, didn’t mean to offend
That’s okay, thanks!
Oh, and I just wanted to mention, I get the “you’re just like Sheldon” comments from both sides. Sheldon is written to be what neurotypicals think autistic people are like from the outside. And just like the early psychiatrists, modern lazy neurotypicals think autism and NPD look similar. I’ve got the flat affect, the big words, the haughty manner. It happens all the time.
One fun thing is that after I transitioned, half the time people say I’m like Amy instead! So that’s… Well, it’s different!
it’s also really strange for her to say that, it’s not like she could realistically know what you went through yourself. a lot of abuse (especially psychological) doesn’t show (clear) signs, especially as victims will tend to need to hide it for self preservation. looking “lucky” to an outside perspective doesn’t make it so.
would like to hear about how NPD (or NPD + autism, if you don’t feel like they’re separate) affects your justice sensitivity, and what masking NPD looks like
Oooh yeah, I’ve got the wrist scars to prove things weren’t all that great for Me lmao. I spent years in therapy for My shit as a kid, and then the therapist turned out to be a pedophile 🤣. He never made a move on Me, though. Not sure if it’s because he’s gay and I was an egg, or if it’s because I’m a huge tattletale who doesn’t take any shit from people in power over Me. In terms of personality disorders as manifestations of cPTSD, NPD is the one where the kid learns to self-advocate in the face of abuse and argue for their own self-worth and right to safety. So NPD kids are pretty hard to diddle on the DL.
In addition to the fact that I learned as a kid to argue My way out of injustice with rhetoric, I also have ethical narcissism. I need to be the absolute most perfect ethical being. Other people with NPD might fixate on beauty or intelligence or strength or creativity or wealth, but for Me it’s ethics. I can’t stand being less than perfect ethically. A few weeks ago I had a mental breakdown when I said something racially problematic, and right now I’m putting a fair amount of effort into not obsessing over it, because I need to be perfect. I’m reminding Myself that I addressed My bias, made an apology, and can’t do anything else to make it better other than move on. So standing up against racism I see in other people is really important to My ego as an ally. And when someone spouts hate against a group I’m in, thereby insulting Me personally? Oh boy does the rage come on!
Masking NPD is about not making people aware that I think I’m better than them. Because I do think I’m better than everyone else, and they can tell. Now, for some reason we have a cultural association between a big ego and abuse. Many people feel that My internal attitude of superiority is itself an attack on them, rather than possibly leading to some kind of harm in the future. Which is funny! Because I’ve spent time in the NPD community, with friends who think they’re better than Me, and it didn’t bother Me that they thought that. But egotypicals can sometimes have very sensitive egos, which I find hilariously ironic.
But yeah, when I mask, I try not to show off My intelligence or My ethics, I make self-deprecating jokes, I use a less mature vocal register. I’m less firm with people about when I think they did something wrong. Which can go back around to triggering that justice sensitivity if I think they said something ethically problematic. So masking can kinda be agony for Me, but I recognise that I do have to be more reserved with calling people racist than I am rn. I barely bothered masking at all in that thread yesterday, and it got heated.
I actually really like Clifford (1994), which ends on the lesson that sometimes it’s more important to be nice and make people like you, than to follow your own sense of justice. Even when it feels like the whole world is against you.
…damn, maybe Clifford has NPD. Other NPD characters I really like in media are Jeff Winger and Tahani Al-Jamil.
cw child abuse
what we colloquially call pedophilia (probably to avoid recognizing that positions of authority/hierarchy and abuse tend to go hand in hand) is often a form of exercising power rather than an actual attraction, so sexuality likely wasn’t related to the lack of victimization
cw eugenics
I kinda get the ethics and sense of superiority bit, my big one is with COVID, how as a society we apparently decided to stop doing anything about the disease that spreads through the entire body and is guaranteed to turn you disabled with enough re-infections (and can also kill you), making life increasingly impossible for vulnerable populations in particular. Eugenics won this round.
In a way it’s almost surprising (but not really in how society at large seems unable to act in self interest), given how there’s so many neurotypicals that love to say that autistic people lack empathy, with a negative framing, yet as a community we apparently love casually throwing anyone with NPD (usually armchair diagnosed fully on the basis of unethical actions) under the bus just as much, not realizing we’d be next anyhow
Mmmhm, narcissophobic autistics are like transphobic gays. They’re people who only changed enough to accept themselves.
I used to think I had something similar to NPD, but now I think I dissociate in emotional situations, probably because of the abuse I experienced as a child. And I don’t think me thinking of myself as smart has anything to do with it. Not undiagnosing you, just mentioning my experience.
Also the question: Do you automatically ignore other people’s emotions or do you have to consciously do it?
I have to consciously choose to ignore emotions, but I think it’s a habit. I want to have empathy most of the time, so I do. A lot of other people with NPD, I think are in the opposite habit, because other people’s emotions have more consistently been a threat in their lives. Some people don’t see the use in ever turning the ability off, because they only understand the pain it can cause and not the joy. That’s the trauma talking, that’s a fear of what other people might do to them. These are people with a history of being in very dangerous situations with adults who don’t love them, or who only use love as a weapon.
If we want these victims to care about us, we need to help them feel safe first. You know, it’s like putting on your own oxygen mask before you help others. They feel like they’re suffocating. And I’ve met people like this who are really dangerous and I don’t take an inch of shit from them. But I always try to start from a place of kindness.
My philosophy on approaching people with kindness comes really heavily from this great little browser game by Nicky Case: https://ncase.me/trust/
The naming makes an unfortunate sense.
Autism (among other things) disrupts your ability to read other people. This is a critical first step in empathising and socialising. We often learn to do this manually, but it’s an exhausting process.
Narcissists overly weigh their own feelings and opinions higher than others. This is useful for mental self defense, but can be problematic with social interactions later.
Sociopaths can read emotions fine, but don’t generate the emotional empathy response expected. Most can learn to fake it, but there are technically no social limiters on their behaviour. Best case, you have doctors playing god to snatch someone back from death, by taking blades to their skin, and power tools to their bones. Worst case is a serial killer playing the same games the other way.
Externally however, all 3 can present similarly. An autistic can’t read, a narcissist won’t read, and a sociopath won’t care. They all break the same chain. The big difference is the internal states.
I personally thought I was alarmingly sociopathic, until I realised that autism wrapped in narcissistic armour looks the same externally. I can care, when I connect. I had to manually build the emotional reading stage however, that gives me an “off switch” that behaves very much like narcissism.
It’s worth noting, I wasn’t abused or anything to develop this. It was facing a normal life with an incomplete toolbox, and a lack of guidance on that front. A cycle I am braking with my own offspring. A task that seems to be going spectacularly so far.
Also, none of those traits are bad in their own right, only when misused. If you can look at yourself and say, this is the person I truly want to be, then go with it. I had to shatter and rebuild a good chunk of my personality tonne who I wanted to be. My autistic and ADHD nature are rocks within that. I wouldn’t give them up (pros and cons) if given the choice.
If you can selectively turn off your NPD, just do it and do it some more. The mind is very malleable, you can change yourself beyond a diagnosis with the right conditions
Autism has benefits to society… Personality disorders are very not good for the people around you. Especially the people closest to you. Starve that wolf, and become the better version of yourself
No, I’m happy to Me and proud of who I am. I grew NPD for a good reason, it helped Me survive abuse. Now I want to use it as a motivating force to live a fun, interesting, and ethical life. I don’t want to have a neurotypical ego, I want to be Me.
As long as you’re not becoming someone else’s trauma due to NPD, I’m all on your side. Break the cycle and be proud of who you are.
Well my trauma mostly comes from someone with NPD. Someone who never doubts themselves, who never understands others, because everything is interpreted through their own experience
Personality disorders are not neurodivergence. You can be different…I sure as hell am. But personality disorders are not being different, they’re a collection of antisocial traits
There’s no good endings to a personality disorder. It’ll tear apart the people closest to you over time and leave you alone, unable to understand that your own actions have brought you there
Please, do be you. But you have to have a heart. You have to work to understand others. You can’t live an ethical life while basking in misunderstanding of others
You’re not too far gone. You don’t have to give up anything. All you have to do is to seek to understand others - it will make your life and the lives of those around you incomparably better
One of the reasons I got sent to a child psychologist is because I wouldn’t shut up about global warming. As a kid, I couldn’t stop thinking about the big problems facing society. As an adult, I went into the environmental industry, monitoring pollution.
Egotypicals can’t control their empathy, but you people do have selective empathy too. How much time do you spend thinking about starving kids in Africa? Egotypicals experience empathy when people with emotions are right in front of them. I can choose when to experience empathy, and I’ve always used that choice to focus on what’s most important.
I’m vegan, carfree. Because I can’t justify the harm that petrol and meat cause. Most egotypicals don’t have empathy for cows, or empathy for the one billion refugees that climate collapse will cause by 2050. I’ve volunteered with Extinction Rebellion and campaigned for a new form of anarchism. My entire life is designed around helping people. All of My goals are to make the world a better place.
And some part of that praxis is because of My NPD. Because I choose when to have empathy and deploy it strategically to do the most good. I don’t just have empathy for the kids in Africa. And Palestine. I have empathy for the prawns that get their eyes plucked out to make them breed faster for the seafood industry. When I heard about that fact, I went and looked up a video to see for Myself, and watch that prawn’s pain. I wanted to know how committed I should be to not eating seafood. I wasn’t afraid to learn the answer, because if it was too terrible to even think about, I knew I could modulate My empathy to the level that best supports praxis. An egotypical might repress that memory and keep eating prawns.
I can, have, and do use My neurodivergence for good. My NPD will always be a part of who I am and that’s okay. Our community is not all bad.
